Monday, 8 June 2009

Schlumberger Rieling Kitterle 2001

One of the wines I bough in Alsace last year, showing a couple oof extra years maturity and it's gorgeous - creamy mineral, citrus, some hints of peach, lovely complexity and great weight. There's something about really good whire wines where the minerallyness seems to shimmer, not quite anything that you can put your finger on, just thing little glittering of a sense of place. Lovely, though I really ought to go to bed, especially as I need to work tomorrow then I have to get a silly early flight to Hungary for this little competition....

Sunday, 7 June 2009

Aromatic white wine tasting with Denis Doubourdieu and the wines of the Cave de Ribeauville

So I spent a very enjoyable Monday afternoon over at the Bibendum offices in Chalk farm. First was a quick lunch with Valeria (our rep) and her good friend Mariela Molinari who’s the assistant winemaker at Bodegas Catena, which gave me a good opportunity to talk about tannins (a current sidetrack), and more specifically ask whether she knew of any research into the thorny issue of tannin, protein and lipids and their interactions – basically I’m looking for some sound science with which to base food and wine recommendations, as what seems currently to be the case is a lot of anecdotal evidence, and what I’m going to call the locality fallacy, i.e both food and wine come from very close to each other, there for they must complement each other. Now I’m aware that co-evolution of food and wine within a region would suggest that very tradition styles of wine might work, but my gut feeling is that given the changes wrought over the last decades even if this was the case it no longer really applies. Anyway, enough of my digressions.

Denis Doubourdieu is a very interesting person, a professor of Enology, and also a well travelled consultant. He’s particularly know for his work with aromatic white wines, growing up on the Sauternes Estate of Chateau Doisy Daene, sweet wine runs in his blood. But increasingly Doisy Daene Sec is the wine people get to know first, as he’s made it one of his tasks to get Bordeaux Sauvignon back on the map. You’ve probably tried at least the Dourthe no 1 white, which was one of his major commercial wines.

The aim of the tasting was to look at the relationship between sugar, acidity, and perceptible sweetness in wines, particularly apt as Doubourdieu has recently started working with les Caves de Ribeauville in Alsace, an area beset by issues of sugar and sweetness levels.

We started with a short flight of Doubourdieu’s Bordelais wines;

Chateau Reynon 2008, Alc: 12.69%, Sugar:0.9g/l, T/A:4.57g/l, pH:3.18. 100% Sauvignon Blanc grown on limestone covered with thick clay and matured in very large old oak barrels. A ripe nose some hay, lemons, hints of peach, quite elegant ripe fruit, underlain with some white bread notes (lees characteristics). The acidity in the wine was quite noticeable, but as was the ripe fruit on the palette giving an impression of sweetness but with effectively no residual sugar, oh and there was a lovely peach guava like finish. 82

Doisy Daene Sec 2007, Alc:12.5%, Sugar: 1.4g/l, T/A:4.85g/l. From Barsac, this is Sauvignon Blanc from a limestone base covered with very thin top soil, also this has seen 10% new oak. Slight grassy herbal character, white pepper and a touch of medium browned toast. A somewhat muscular palette, there is an interesting persistence of body to the wine, the ripe slightly peachy fruit working very well with the creaminess of the lees characters and the oak, the grassy character of the Sauvignon Blanc manifesting itself more as a peach skin scent, then a lime and peach finish. 84

Clos Floridene 2007, Alc: 13%, Sugar:1.7g/l, T/A:4.53g/l, pH:3.15. Clos Floridene is from just next to Doisy Daene, but the macro climate is somewhat cooler, also Clos Floridene has 50% Semillon, of which 30% sees new oak. Sticky apricots and a much more mineral tang. Very fresh and direct acidity with a real lemon citrus character, some ripe fruit but an odd stickiness to the fruit on the finish. 81

Clos Floridene 1998, Alc: 13%, Sugar: 1.4g/l, T/A 3.49g/l. This was shown to prove that well made wines can age, Dubourdeieu is of the opinion that so long as you don’t damage the wine in their youth, i.e. expose them to excess oxygen, whether through unnecessary fermentation times, of bad handling then they have the potential to age well. Bread, beeswax, and oxidative characteristics, citrus and some bruised apple notes. Still fresh acidity some fine tropical fruit notes mixed with a nutty brioche palette. Lengthy with a nutty and tight mineral finish. (not scored as it was more interesting than a serious drinking wine)

 

We then moved to a flight of Rieslings from les Caves Ribeauville, Ribeauville is pretty central in Alsace and is located pretty much at the heart of the geological fault that gives Alsace such a grab bag of different soils and terroirs. Les Caves themselves are the oldest coop in France having formed in 1895, and have been pretty forward looking ever since, taking things up a notch in the 90’s when they inaugurated their quality charter for members. No dusty wineries and disinterested semi peasant growers here.

Riesling Prestige 2008, Alc 12%, Sugar 3.5g/l, T/A 10g, pH 3.00. All were agreed that Prestige was a stupid name, as it wasn’t a tete du cuvee, but moving on, this was from a 10km spread and was sourced from the best parcels from their growers. It showed delicate white flowers, minerals, some slight tropical fruit hints and some fresh ripe pear characters. Tight and sharp on the palette, the very low residual sugar and quite high acidity were just about kept in balance by the freshness of the varieties fruit, this wine is apparently aimed at the UK market. 83

Apparently one of the first things Doubourdieu did  on arrival at les Caves, was enquire as to whether they knew Riesling was an aromatic varietal, so often in their youth Alsatian Rieslings are somewhat mute and austere, which makes them rather hard to market to countries like the UK who are increasingly weaned on fruit salad bombs from the new world. Yes he understands that given a few years they can show fabulous complexity and tertiary development, but this is isn’t worth toffee if you’re trying to shift volume in a modern market.

Riesling Terroirs Reserve 2008, Alc 12.5%, Sugar 3g/l, T/A 10.1g/l, pH 3.00. This wine had a similar sugar : acidity balance, but much more body. Citrus, mineral nose, a tough of leesiness with a hint of peach, full bodied and very minerally with touched of citrus and mandarin peel. A slight roundness from the lees takes you to a direct and minerally finish (authors note – it’s worrying how much quite and shite look the same in my handwriting – as a shite minerally finish isn’t so nice). A good wine that’s very expressive of what Alsace can do, but it lacks the focus that single site and terroir specific Rieslings can bring. 85

Riesling Grand Cru Osterberg 2007, Alc 13%, Sugar 5g/l, T/A 7.35g/l, pH 3.15. West of Ribeauville, the Osterberg (East Hill) is an east facing slope with clay over limestone. The Ribeauville estate is in the centre of the hill. Citrus, rose petals, a touch of some exotic asian spice, very minerally. On the palette there is some ripe citrus characters intertwined with the creamy mineral core, all wrapped round a good core of acidity. The Osterberg had much lower acidity, and consequently was vinified to a lower level of residual sugar to maintain the balance of fruit and sweetness that Dubourdieu was aiming for. For me the wine showed exactly the kind of ripe exotic aromatic characters that speak of Riesling grown on a mainly clay terroir, exactly the kind of focus that was lacking in the terroirs selection. 88

Dubourdieu explained that what drew him to working in Alsace was getting to work with Riesling at the edge of it’s climatic range, as he feels that grape varieties do not express their full potential unless there is a degree of struggle in ripening them. This applies across the board, where it might be difficult getting full ripeness in Aglianico in southern Italy, Merlot achieves it far too easily, so it’s no surprise that Aglianico produces the better wines from the region.

We finished up with a quick tasting of the other Alsatian varieties.

Muscat Prestige 2008, Alc 12.5%, Sugar 7g/l, T/A 7.4g/l pH 3.2. Now I don’t normally like dry Muscat as it usually flatters to deceive with too much on the nose, then a disappointingly flat palette and a slight bitter finish. So I was intruiged to find Dubourdieu make reference to working to reduce the bitterness on the palette. On pressing he linked it to tannins in the white wine, which in turn were strongly linked to water stress in the vines. So in the vineyard they keep yields very low, remove the cover crops and plough the rows between the vines to increase Nitrogen availability for the vines. This is followed by gentle pressing and gentle handling in the winery to make a wine that keeps the aromatics but does so with a balanced and complete palette. Grapey, floral, elegant nose, showing crisp acidity, bright floral and slightly tropical fruit, but keeping a degree of continuity between expectation and delivery.

Pinot Blanc Vielle Vignes 2008, Alc 12.5%, Sugar 7g/l, T/A 7.75g/l, pH 3.05. Minty citrus , apples, quite delicate with a subtle dessert apple character. Lovely fresh applpyness on the palette with medium acidity and a delicate fresh apply finish.

Pinot Gris Prestige 2008, Alc 13.5%, Sugar 8g/l, T/A 8.1g/l, pH 3.10. Ripe exotically spiced apricots, a hint of minerals, on the palette some spiced peach and citrus, showing dryish.

Finally we looked at the Clos du Zahnacker 2008, Alc 14%, Sugar 7.5g/l, T/A 8.95g/l, pH 3.10. This is an extremely ancient spot of vineyard in the middle of the Osterberg, records going back to the 14th century record vines being planted here. Traditionally the site was interplanted, les Caves have continued this, so the Clos du Zahnacker is a field blend of Pinot Gris, Riesling and Gewurztraminer. Rather like Marcel Deiss they report that the ripening of the vines is all remarkably consistent between the varietals, though for the 08 the Pinot Gris was harvested a bit later, the grapes were all crushed then the must blended for fermentation. The site dips slightly in the centre giving a range of different aspects so the different varietals can all be placed in suitable expositions. The wine was complex showing at various moments, citrus, mineral, lees notes, apricots, and tropical fruits, with great length and a nice balance of acidity and fruit. 89.

Final words to Doubourdieu, (not quite exact) “Some of my famous colleges give advice to producers on how to produce Bordeaux in Bordeaux and to producers who want to produce Bordeaux style wines outside of Bordeaux, I’m interested in helping producers make the most of their regional varietals and styles.” Can you guess who he might have been talking about?Aromatic white wine tasting with Denis Doubourdieu and the wines of the Cave de Ribeauville:

 

So I spent a very enjoyable Monday afternoon over at the Bibendum offices in Chalk farm. First was a quick lunch with Valeria (our rep) and her good friend Mariela Molinari who’s the assistant winemaker at Bodegas Catena, which gave me a good opportunity to talk about tannins (a current sidetrack), and more specifically ask whether she knew of any research into the thorny issue of tannin, protein and lipids and their interactions – basically I’m looking for some sound science with which to base food and wine recommendations, as what seems currently to be the case is a lot of anecdotal evidence, and what I’m going to call the locality fallacy, i.e both food and wine come from very close to each other, there for they must complement each other. Now I’m aware that co-evolution of food and wine within a region would suggest that very tradition styles of wine might work, but my gut feeling is that given the changes wrought over the last decades even if this was the case it no longer really applies. Anyway, enough of my digressions.

Denis Doubourdieu is a very interesting person, a professor of Enology, and also a well travelled consultant. He’s particularly know for his work with aromatic white wines, growing up on the Sauternes Estate of Chateau Doisy Daene, sweet wine runs in his blood. But increasingly Doisy Daene Sec is the wine people get to know first, as he’s made it one of his tasks to get Bordeaux Sauvignon back on the map. You’ve probably tried at least the Dourthe no 1 white, which was one of his major commercial wines.

The aim of the tasting was to look at the relationship between sugar, acidity, and perceptible sweetness in wines, particularly apt as Doubourdieu has recently started working with les Caves de Ribeauville in Alsace, an area beset by issues of sugar and sweetness levels.

We started with a short flight of Doubourdieu’s Bordelais wines;

Chateau Reynon 2008, Alc: 12.69%, Sugar:0.9g/l, T/A:4.57g/l, pH:3.18. 100% Sauvignon Blanc grown on limestone covered with thick clay and matured in very large old oak barrels. A ripe nose some hay, lemons, hints of peach, quite elegant ripe fruit, underlain with some white bread notes (lees characteristics). The acidity in the wine was quite noticeable, but as was the ripe fruit on the palette giving an impression of sweetness but with effectively no residual sugar, oh and there was a lovely peach guava like finish. 82

Doisy Daene Sec 2007, Alc:12.5%, Sugar: 1.4g/l, T/A:4.85g/l. From Barsac, this is Sauvignon Blanc from a limestone base covered with very thin top soil, also this has seen 10% new oak. Slight grassy herbal character, white pepper and a touch of medium browned toast. A somewhat muscular palette, there is an interesting persistence of body to the wine, the ripe slightly peachy fruit working very well with the creaminess of the lees characters and the oak, the grassy character of the Sauvignon Blanc manifesting itself more as a peach skin scent, then a lime and peach finish. 84

Clos Floridene 2007, Alc: 13%, Sugar:1.7g/l, T/A:4.53g/l, pH:3.15. Clos Floridene is from just next to Doisy Daene, but the macro climate is somewhat cooler, also Clos Floridene has 50% Semillon, of which 30% sees new oak. Sticky apricots and a much more mineral tang. Very fresh and direct acidity with a real lemon citrus character, some ripe fruit but an odd stickiness to the fruit on the finish. 81

Clos Floridene 1998, Alc: 13%, Sugar: 1.4g/l, T/A 3.49g/l. This was shown to prove that well made wines can age, Dubourdeieu is of the opinion that so long as you don’t damage the wine in their youth, i.e. expose them to excess oxygen, whether through unnecessary fermentation times, of bad handling then they have the potential to age well. Bread, beeswax, and oxidative characteristics, citrus and some bruised apple notes. Still fresh acidity some fine tropical fruit notes mixed with a nutty brioche palette. Lengthy with a nutty and tight mineral finish. (not scored as it was more interesting than a serious drinking wine)

 

We then moved to a flight of Rieslings from les Caves Ribeauville, Ribeauville is pretty central in Alsace and is located pretty much at the heart of the geological fault that gives Alsace such a grab bag of different soils and terroirs. Les Caves themselves are the oldest coop in France having formed in 1895, and have been pretty forward looking ever since, taking things up a notch in the 90’s when they inaugurated their quality charter for members. No dusty wineries and disinterested semi peasant growers here.

Riesling Prestige 2008, Alc 12%, Sugar 3.5g/l, T/A 10g, pH 3.00. All were agreed that Prestige was a stupid name, as it wasn’t a tete du cuvee, but moving on, this was from a 10km spread and was sourced from the best parcels from their growers. It showed delicate white flowers, minerals, some slight tropical fruit hints and some fresh ripe pear characters. Tight and sharp on the palette, the very low residual sugar and quite high acidity were just about kept in balance by the freshness of the varieties fruit, this wine is apparently aimed at the UK market. 83

Apparently one of the first things Doubourdieu did  on arrival at les Caves, was enquire as to whether they knew Riesling was an aromatic varietal, so often in their youth Alsatian Rieslings are somewhat mute and austere, which makes them rather hard to market to countries like the UK who are increasingly weaned on fruit salad bombs from the new world. Yes he understands that given a few years they can show fabulous complexity and tertiary development, but this is isn’t worth toffee if you’re trying to shift volume in a modern market.

Riesling Terroirs Reserve 2008, Alc 12.5%, Sugar 3g/l, T/A 10.1g/l, pH 3.00. This wine had a similar sugar : acidity balance, but much more body. Citrus, mineral nose, a tough of leesiness with a hint of peach, full bodied and very minerally with touched of citrus and mandarin peel. A slight roundness from the lees takes you to a direct and minerally finish (authors note – it’s worrying how much quite and shite look the same in my handwriting – as a shite minerally finish isn’t so nice). A good wine that’s very expressive of what Alsace can do, but it lacks the focus that single site and terroir specific Rieslings can bring. 85

Riesling Grand Cru Osterberg 2007, Alc 13%, Sugar 5g/l, T/A 7.35g/l, pH 3.15. West of Ribeauville, the Osterberg (East Hill) is an east facing slope with clay over limestone. The Ribeauville estate is in the centre of the hill. Citrus, rose petals, a touch of some exotic asian spice, very minerally. On the palette there is some ripe citrus characters intertwined with the creamy mineral core, all wrapped round a good core of acidity. The Osterberg had much lower acidity, and consequently was vinified to a lower level of residual sugar to maintain the balance of fruit and sweetness that Dubourdieu was aiming for. For me the wine showed exactly the kind of ripe exotic aromatic characters that speak of Riesling grown on a mainly clay terroir, exactly the kind of focus that was lacking in the terroirs selection. 88

Dubourdieu explained that what drew him to working in Alsace was getting to work with Riesling at the edge of it’s climatic range, as he feels that grape varieties do not express their full potential unless there is a degree of struggle in ripening them. This applies across the board, where it might be difficult getting full ripeness in Aglianico in southern Italy, Merlot achieves it far too easily, so it’s no surprise that Aglianico produces the better wines from the region.

We finished up with a quick tasting of the other Alsatian varieties.

Muscat Prestige 2008, Alc 12.5%, Sugar 7g/l, T/A 7.4g/l pH 3.2. Now I don’t normally like dry Muscat as it usually flatters to deceive with too much on the nose, then a disappointingly flat palette and a slight bitter finish. So I was intruiged to find Dubourdieu make reference to working to reduce the bitterness on the palette. On pressing he linked it to tannins in the white wine, which in turn were strongly linked to water stress in the vines. So in the vineyard they keep yields very low, remove the cover crops and plough the rows between the vines to increase Nitrogen availability for the vines. This is followed by gentle pressing and gentle handling in the winery to make a wine that keeps the aromatics but does so with a balanced and complete palette. Grapey, floral, elegant nose, showing crisp acidity, bright floral and slightly tropical fruit, but keeping a degree of continuity between expectation and delivery.

Pinot Blanc Vielle Vignes 2008, Alc 12.5%, Sugar 7g/l, T/A 7.75g/l, pH 3.05. Minty citrus , apples, quite delicate with a subtle dessert apple character. Lovely fresh applpyness on the palette with medium acidity and a delicate fresh apply finish.

Pinot Gris Prestige 2008, Alc 13.5%, Sugar 8g/l, T/A 8.1g/l, pH 3.10. Ripe exotically spiced apricots, a hint of minerals, on the palette some spiced peach and citrus, showing dryish.

Finally we looked at the Clos du Zahnacker 2008, Alc 14%, Sugar 7.5g/l, T/A 8.95g/l, pH 3.10. This is an extremely ancient spot of vineyard in the middle of the Osterberg, records going back to the 14th century record vines being planted here. Traditionally the site was interplanted, les Caves have continued this, so the Clos du Zahnacker is a field blend of Pinot Gris, Riesling and Gewurztraminer. Rather like Marcel Deiss they report that the ripening of the vines is all remarkably consistent between the varietals, though for the 08 the Pinot Gris was harvested a bit later, the grapes were all crushed then the must blended for fermentation. The site dips slightly in the centre giving a range of different aspects so the different varietals can all be placed in suitable expositions. The wine was complex showing at various moments, citrus, mineral, lees notes, apricots, and tropical fruits, with great length and a nice balance of acidity and fruit. 89.

Final words to Doubourdieu, (not quite exact) “Some of my famous colleges give advice to producers on how to produce Bordeaux in Bordeaux and to producers who want to produce Bordeaux style wines outside of Bordeaux, I’m interested in helping producers make the most of their regional varietals and styles.” Can you guess who he might have been talking about?

Nicolas Potel, Savigny Les Beaunes, Les Charmeuses

I love Burgundian crus with names like les Charmeuses, they're completely see through in what they trying to convey, and yet quite appealing with it. 
I don;'t think I tried any Potel wines since back in Hotel du Vin days, but I seem to hear good thinggs about him, and it's quite lovely - delicate cherry floral notes, a pleasant freshness of acidity, a slight metallic note on the finish is the only slight downside.
However I am drinking it as a light lunchtime accompanyment, when in reality I ought to be thinking about breaking fast, possibly with a cup of tea, and settling in for a days worth of revision on ethical wines.
Funny how merely saying the phrase makes me want to beat several small dispossed ethnic minority infants into working frankly unsustainable work hours to produce wine for me. Hmmn, I might have to think about my attitute to work here.....

Saturday, 25 April 2009

Eternum Vini

Well tonight was one of the easiest busy(ish) nights at work, everyone played along really well, the kitchen was pretty spot on and I got alot of stuff done on the wine list prepping for the stock take beforhand in the day, so all in all not too shabby.
Had a bottle of Eternum Vini Toro red from Johnny at Bancroft to taste, 100% Tempranillo which we opened at about 7.30ish.
However the tasting not might have tp wait till I'm less shattered and more capable of writing.

Friday, 17 April 2009

Apsley Gorge Pinot Noir 05

A little present from Francoise at Justerini and Brooks, a nice maturish Tasmanian Pinot Noir, showing a nose of framboise and slightly sweet herbs. On the palette there is a nice bitter red fruit character and some nice weight, elegant with a nice length and none of the soupyness that sometimes marrs new world pinots (though I appreciate that this rarely occurs from the Tasmanian examples).
What I'm liking is that it's sowing a bit of maturity, probably hasn't got lots and lots of life left - but it should be a treat with the confit duck that's just on the way for me.
Now then with the confit canard it was rather nice. The crispy duck shin really setting off the left over red fruit characters. However it did start to show a little bit too much heat on the finish. Leading me to check and yep - 14% alc, something that my current heavy exposure to french reds really leaves me cold.

Monday, 15 December 2008

Ruminations

God has given us a dark wine so potent that,
drinking it, we leave the two worlds.

God has put into the form of hashish a power
to deliver the taster from self-conciousness.

God has made sleep so
that it erases every thought.

God made Majnun love Layla so much that
just her dog would cause confusion in him.

There are thousands of wines
that can take over our minds.

Don't think all ecstasies
are the same!

Jesus was lost in his love for God.
His donkey was drunk with barley.

Drink from the presence of the saints,
not from those other jars.

Every object, every being,
is a jar full of delight.

Be a connoiseur 
and drink with caution.

Any wine will get you high.
Judge like a king and choose the purest,

the ones unadulterated with fear,
or some urgency about "what's needed"

Drink the wine that moves you
as a camel moves when it's been untied,
and is just ambling about.

Twelth century thoughst on wine drinking. Now apart from the stanza about Majnun and Layla, it rather rings true. I'm guessing that the alcohols that were present in the 12th century persia were predominately dark coloured as they'd either be red and oxidised or sweet rich and oxidised - think PX sherry, the lighter whites would have been somewhat on the vinegary side.
So it's with this in mind that I'm drinking some dry amontillado sherry and feeling the weight of history upon my shoulders and wonderikng whether it's a tangiable benefit to wines.
If one can take pleasure in a well turned metaphor, or an allusion to a well loved story and derive a degree of intellectual satisfaction from hearing a familiar motif in a piece of music then is it acceptable to add the baggage of history to a wine you're drinking?
Does knowing that Chambolle Musigny was Napoleons favorite wine add to it's already multifareous charms or does it merely add a coating of the emperors newest clothes?
There is a certain intellectual rigourousness to appraising wines from a position of unbiased knowledge - applying a completely level playing field and merely judging what's in the glass, but does this apply a tourniquet to an extra level of pleasure, like being born anew each day, seeing everything for it's superficial beauty without appreciating the deeper connected levels?
Drinking something that's of my age still has a special thrill, annoyingly it happens quite rarely as I was born too early (about one year to be precice). But since beauty is in the eye of the beholder and quality is supposed to be separate from personal predilictions, can the two coincide? Or are they just products of separate spheres? Beauty being something utterly dependant on time, place and state of mind, whereas quality is more of a democratic product - i.e. agreed upon by the majority?

Tuesday, 22 April 2008

Cune, Monopole barrel fermented white Rioja 2005

Back to my parents house lateish in the evening after an 8 day week and the wine that's in the fridge is better than was to be expected.

Ripe rather tropical palette showing a sort of umami peach character, and a dollop of something floral on the nose. Initially I was finding the oaking a little intrusive as it was just a bit obvious, but a slice of prosciutto di parma seems to have remedied that.
Actually now the palette is a bit better balanced the wines rather good.

Anyhow the cheapo clarets I ordered for my dad have arrived. Though I might have to query the vintage on one of the wines as I'm pretty certain I ordered the Ch la toiur de Mons 05 and we've received the 03. I don't like the people in my restaurant that get overly heated up about vintage changes, but this is my money and I'm not that overly keen on 03 Bordeaux, as I'm a bit of an acid fan. Still I'm rather excited about getting stuck into some tasting.
We have, Chateau Lamartine 05, cotes de castillion, Ch du Retout 00, Haut Medoc, Ch Lenormand 05, Premiere Cotes de Bordeaux, the intruiguing looking Lalande Coutourier 05 which is an ABC (appelation bordeaux controle), 6 bottles of Ch Pontac Lynch 05 and a bottle of Ch Gazin Rocquencourt 05 Pessac Leognan which the nice girl I was chatting to sent me for free. I feel an entrecote bordelaise coming on.
Shame dinner tomorrow will be with a couple of vegetarians.....